a simple cocktail - problem with ice

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Onfame
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a simple cocktail - problem with ice

Post by Onfame » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:48 am

i want to model a cocktail, its a wip so please be patient, but my problem is that the ice cubes (dunno if they are so called in english) always are kind of black, i tried several hdri´s and many gain factors. i used the ice material from the m-database, first i thought it´s the bump map, but then i tried to change the material from a glossy transparent with bump to a specular without bump, but no effect.

furthermore, since i use cindigo, my global scale factor is 0.001, all other materials work correctly.

so my problem is how to get those ice cubes look like ice?

Also i tried MLT with and without bidir, but no effect on the cubes.

i use indigo 1.1.15 and the newest cindigo version. Also i tried aperture diffraction and without, but still no significant changes in the result.
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Juniorsatan
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Post by Juniorsatan » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:09 am

Check normals of the ice-cubes.

Perhaps the precedence althoug affect the effect. (lol)



Ist es für das Webdesigner-Battle? :)

Onfame
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Post by Onfame » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:14 am

if i changed the normals the cubes get totally black, which means the normals should be okay, i also tried to change precedence from 1 to 10 to 20 to 50 but no significant effect.

And yes, this is my first sss liquid test for a battle on "der-webdesigner.net" :)

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Kram1032
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Post by Kram1032 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:51 am

precedence doesn't need to be a cerain value. It only should be like that:

Precendence of 1<Liquid<Glass<=Ice :)

0.001 ... did you model in millimetres?

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CTZn
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Post by CTZn » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:22 pm

Are you by any chance using the hybrid mode ? It's not to recommend...

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Phr0stByte
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Post by Phr0stByte » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:15 am

Onfame
I know you said you tried several HDRIs, but from what I can see in your posted pic, is a very black environment with the light source coming from the top. I would guess that the black in the ice is just your environment being reflected on the ice. I don't remember having any issues with the ice material when I first made it, though I have not used it in recent versions of Indigo.
Try enclosing the scene in a cube and light it with a couple of area lights to test this theory.

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PureSpider
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Post by PureSpider » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:31 am

Thats what I think, too!
The Ice looks totally fine to me, judged by its refractions and such!

neepneep
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Post by neepneep » Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:36 am

Also, make sure the ice cubes are not instances - instanced objects with transparent materials turn black for some reason.

Onfame
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Post by Onfame » Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:48 am

hmm i tried krams tip, now it works just fine, i think the problem was a too high precedence of liquid and glass :) Also i changed the global scale factor from 0.001 to 0.01. Here´s the result:
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crojack
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Post by crojack » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:51 am

it looks nice, but the ice is too far out of the water. at least it looks like that to me.

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Phr0stByte
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Post by Phr0stByte » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:55 am

What crojack said. I dont think it should even be floating at all. I would make the ice much bigger, deform them so that they don't all look the same, and arrange them pile up from the bottom of the glass with the top ones sticking out of the liquid a bit.

Onfame
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Post by Onfame » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:45 am

as i said it´s just a WIP to test the material settings :)

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Kram1032
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Post by Kram1032 » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:45 am

ok, so only the liquid's precedence was too high: as the glass doesn't touch the ice cubes, it doesn't affect them.
But if the liquids precedence was even higher than the one of the glass, it affected the liquid.

Look at precedence like this:
It's a layering system.
If you map it to 2D, it would be like that:
The uppermost layer would partly hide layers underneath. Those layers underneath could hide other layers lying under them.
And so on.

Now, the higher your layer lies, the higher is the number it has.
"1" is already presaved for standard air.

So, if you make it like this:

liquid = 2
glass = 3
ice = 3

that'll work just as fine as if you say

liquid = 10
glass = 25
ice = 99

It's recommended for more complicated scenes that you don't use double precedence value. Also, as that's allready the surrounding air, never use precedence of 1!

Things start to get odd, if you have two similar precedences and the two materials intersect:

liquid = 2
glass = 2
ice = 1

Indigo couldn't decide propperly, wether to use liquid first or rather glass. What you get is a nebulous buggy something.
Even worse, ice has a precedence of 1, which lets it "mix" in the same undefinable way but with air.

Next problem in that case would be, that the liquid would also cut off the ice, instead of the other way round!

Onfame
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Post by Onfame » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:17 am

THANKS for that wonderfull explanation, now i got it :D

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