Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

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PushCreative
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Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by PushCreative » Wed May 07, 2014 6:22 am

Hello everyone! My name is Jeff.
So this is my first time posting on the forum.
I have been looking into Indigo for some time now and have decided to purchase it for commercial use, providing renderings for homebuilders / individuals.

My intent is to hear some feedback/advice of my set up, things I may be doing wrong or things that I need to learn or try, thanks in advance. ( I will be diving into the manual and all available posts to find additional info as well.)

My Main Concerns Are:
-Typical Rendering Time (What should I be shooting for given my hardware)
-Complex Geometry Bogging Sketch Up Down
-Viability of producing Animations (given my type of scenes and hardware)

Hardware
I purchased a new computer thinking that it would have enough horse power to be able to speed up the rendering process substantially, but I've had what i would think are pretty mediocre results.
This is the computer I purchased:
2014 Mac Pro
3.7 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon E5
12 GB 1867 MHz DDR3
Dual AMD FirePro D300 2048 MB (1.Core Clock 850 MHz 2. Core Clock 150 MHz)
Open CL 1.2
OSX 10.9.2

Test Scene Results for Caterpillar
3min
Samples per pixel: 174.49, 677k sample/s (CPU Only) (Bi directional Path Tracing)
Samples per pixel: 208.85, 695k sample/s (CPU Only) (Path Tracing)

Samples per pixel: 345.38, 1340k sample/s (GPU Acc) (Path Tracing)

Test Scene Results for Erotica
3min
Samples per pixel: 471.06, 1729k sample/s (CPU Only) (Bi directional Path Tracing)

Samples per pixel: 900.22, 3309k sample/s (GPU Acc) (Path Tracing)

Software
Indigo Renderer V3.6
SkIndigo Version V3.6.25.5
Sketchup 2014

Results Thus Far
I have created a test scene of a small condominium suite with what i would consider a medium level of detailing and I have been sensing that it is a bit much for sketch up to handle at times, specially when returning to sketch up after exporting a render, it takes about a minute for it to work again.
I am using some components from the SketchUp Warehouse, some of which seem to be a large factor in the lag, is it possible to simplify a component or optimize anything to help this?
Please see attached for "AP-Unit-1.jpg" for an idea of the scene

Please see attached for "Render Test 01_18hrs.jpg for a scene that has been rendering for a solid 18hrs.
One of my issues is that this scene has been rendering for 18 hrs and says the next update is due in 8hrs and has not looked very different than after about 5 mins of rendering time.
In my current understanding of the software this seems a bit extreme to have a scene render that long and still be so grainy, and as stated above, I have the GPU acceleration turned on.

* I just re-rendered the scene and this is the results after 3 min *

Samples per pixel: 24.37, 235k sample/s (CPU Only) (Bi directional Path Tracing)

Samples per pixel: 54.81, 553k sample/s (GPU Acc) (Path Tracing)

Scene Info:
Dynamic Objects: 271
Triangles: 135574
Unique Triangles: 98046

What type of render times should I be looking for with such a scene and given my hardware?
Are there other people using the new mac pros with same specs? and what are your results?
I did read this post:
http://www.indigorenderer.com/forum/vie ... 9&start=15

Thanks again for your help in advance!
Attachments
Render Test 01_18hrs.jpg
AP-Unit-1.jpg

Voytech
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:57 am

Re: Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by Voytech » Wed May 07, 2014 8:27 am

I will start by saying that you should update to 3.8 immediately. There are some significant speedups there, especially on architectural glass.

I'm sure others will chime in with more suggestions, but it probably is down to the scene not being optimized for rendering. If you don't mind, you can share the .skp and/or a packed igs file so we can have a better understanding where there is room to improve.

Best,

Voytech

P.S. I'm getting 636.35 spp / 2339k samples/s on Erotica in BiDir PT.
2013 iMac 27-inch, Late 2013
16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 775M 2048 MB

This is using IndigoRT 3.8.2.

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Oscar J
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Re: Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by Oscar J » Wed May 07, 2014 8:28 am

Something seems to be wrong, that's all I can say. Hopefully somebody will be of more help.

PushCreative
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 5:03 am
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by PushCreative » Wed May 07, 2014 8:56 am

Thanks for the interest thus far.

See attached for zipped igs file (let me know if that doesn't work)

I'm sure that I am doing a number of things wrong regarding optimization but you gotta start somewhere I guess.

3.8.2 is in beta correct? I will check it out.
Attachments
JC_RenderTest IGS.zip
(3.51 MiB) Downloaded 116 times

PushCreative
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 5:03 am
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by PushCreative » Wed May 07, 2014 9:28 am

So I upgraded to 3.8.2 and here are the results:

3.8 (Erotica)

Samples per pixel: 603.71, 2219k samples/s CPU Bidirectional Path Tracing (22% improvement over 3.6)

Samples per pixel: 1011.90, 3720k samples/s GPU Acc Path Tracing (11% improvement over 3.6)




3.8 (My Test Scene)

Samples per pixel: 29.87, 301k samples/s CPU Bidirectional Path Tracing (22% improvement over 3.6)

Samples per pixel: 60.53, 612k samples/s GPU Acc Path Tracing (10% improvement over 3.6)

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Zom-B
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Re: Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by Zom-B » Wed May 07, 2014 9:42 am

Since you are on Sketchup here are some video tutorial, they are maybe dated but still valid in most points:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD14E96A2CD263FE1
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... 9b6eUq-9QV

In your case there are a few things done bad:

1) never use pure white colors (also not for textures) a max of 204 in RGB is the limit, everything above becomes a diffuse mirror reflecting your light rays until end off time and resulting in fireflies!.
(more details here: http://www.indigorenderer.com/forum/vie ... 19&t=12529)

2) Use Exit Portals for Interiors!

3) Use Arch Glass (new in 3.8 ) for glass in windows etc!

BTW, the scene update is simply just raising over time, you can manually update with the button on the top of the GUI!
Since I want to show my Penis too, here are the numbers of my 3 computer Render setup that cost same as your Mac Pro:

Test Scene Results for Erotica
3min
Samples per pixel: 2353.20, 8650992.06k sample/s (CPU Only) (Bi directional Path Tracing)
polygonmanufaktur.de

PushCreative
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 5:03 am
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by PushCreative » Wed May 07, 2014 10:11 am

Thanks Zom-B,

I will be trying out a number of these things.

However one interesting thing is that i don't have the exit portal option
(see attached for a screen shot of my tool palette when following the tutorial)

Am I missing something?
Attachments
Exit Portal image.png

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Zom-B
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Re: Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by Zom-B » Wed May 07, 2014 7:13 pm

Yes the exit portal property is not a mesh property anymore but it's been reverted to material property!
polygonmanufaktur.de

Voytech
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:57 am

Re: Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by Voytech » Thu May 08, 2014 1:29 am

One more thing: MAKE SURE APP NAP is OFF for Indigo!!! This will prevent the CPU from throttling down when you step away from the computer. I had this issue on the iMac.

See attached screen shot.
Attachments
Screen Shot 2014-05-07 at 9.27.41 AM.png

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Oscar J
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Re: Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by Oscar J » Thu May 08, 2014 2:40 am

My 2011 MBP renders at about 3/4 of your rendering speed (1720k samples/s, Erotica). Something's up. Maybe Indigo's badly optimized for the Mac Pro or sth.

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Oscar J
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Re: Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by Oscar J » Thu May 08, 2014 4:12 am

Also for most interior renders, you'll want to use BiDir. It's a more sophisticated rendering method, and even though your samples/second rate will be a bit lower, these kind of renders will clean up a lot faster. Also exit portals doesn't work well with Pathtracing (and exit portals are a MUST for interior rendering).

Voytech
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:57 am

Re: Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by Voytech » Thu May 08, 2014 5:45 am

PushCreative wrote:Thanks for the interest thus far.

See attached for zipped igs file (let me know if that doesn't work)

I'm sure that I am doing a number of things wrong regarding optimization but you gotta start somewhere I guess.

3.8.2 is in beta correct? I will check it out.
Can't use this igs. You need to export a .pigs (Packaged IGS) file which includes all materials.

ak-sam
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Re: Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by ak-sam » Mon May 12, 2014 10:49 am

You may not get it running 'fast' but the goal is get it down to something like 8 hours - then it can run overnight while you sleep.

Complex items are things like glass and chrome (specular materials). Detailed geometry doesn't worry indigo much at all.

If you have glass showers, mirrors etc in the bathroom, try hiding them from the scene before rendering (maybe put them on a layer, then turn that layer's visibility off). Even though you can't see them directly, they could be slowing your model down a lot.

Reduce the number of light sources, eg light coming through the gap below the door. Using exit portals will also help a lot. You can even remove lights from rooms that aren't totally visible (eg if you have 4 downlights in the bathroom, delete 3 and make the last one 3x more powerful. You'll get much the same effect, but with fewer light sources.

Try making all your panes of glass into a group or component (with a volume) and using Specular material instead of thin glass. (and use bidirectional path tracing). This works better if you have light passing through it.


A couple of extra tips:
Use dummy components: They allow you to have a simple version of a component that indigo swaps out to a highly detailed version when it renders. EG you can have a basic chair for use in sketchup that is swapped toa chair with 10million faces when it renders. This won't actually slow indigo down much at all!

An artistic tip....Experiment with making your camera position lower, so that the edges (eg vertical walls) on the left and right of the scene are parallel with the edges of the monitor (ie, make your walls vertical) - this would lower your viewpoint quite a bit, but it gives a nicer look. (check out some interior design mags for examples)
Skindigo on 1x 6950x, 1x3970x, 6x3930k, 2x4930k, 3x5930k

PushCreative
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Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by PushCreative » Fri May 23, 2014 4:45 am

Thanks again everyone for all the info.
I believe I have made some improvements, however I still have a number of questions that I would like your input with.

-How Do I Use An Exit Portal And Still See A Background For My Sky/Trees Ect?
-How Do I Use Glass Internally When Using Exit Portals And Not Get FireFlys/Artifacts?
-How Do I Get Metallic Objects (a mirror in this case) To Render With Less/No FireFlys?
-Is There A Way To Scale Or Change The Position Of An EV Map Material When Using Environment Maps?

(I know you can rotate it but I can't seem to find a way to position or scale the image)

I am creating scenes that have a full height glass window wall and then a balcony behind that glass wall.
I have placed the Exit Portal at the back face of the balcony edge since that is the only external light source.
(Instead of making each glass pane an exit portal because that ends up making anything modelled behind it invisible)
When I use the Exit Portal option I have a couple repercussions that I need help with.

-I can't seem to use glass or a transparent material with volume for the glass windows because it creates odd artifacts in the render, with or without glass acceleration, so I end up deleting the glass which makes the scene feel fake in my opinion.

-When using Exit Portals I no longer can use GPU acceleration since it requires Bidirectional Path Tracing, will this ever be possible with GPU acceleration? Although when using Exit Portals I am able to produce the rendering within about 6 hrs in comparison to 15 hrs for my last test image, with a much cleaner result.

-It seems that any face that is created into an Exit Portal ends up being "blown out" or way overexposed with no visible sky background. Is it possible to use Exit Portals and still have a background image like a sky scene?

Take a look at my latest test render for context (still just testing things out, tons of improvement still to be made)

Thanks again for your help.
Attachments
AP-Unit-1_Int 2_01.jpg
AP-Unit-1_Int 1_01.jpg
AP-Unit-1_Ext_01.jpg

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Zom-B
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Re: Help With Rendering Basic Knowledge

Post by Zom-B » Fri May 23, 2014 4:59 am

A few answers:

Code: Select all

How Do I Use An Exit Portal And Still See A Background For My Sky/Trees Ect?
Atm not possible, you'll need to make a EP "box" that covers the area with the tree etc.

Code: Select all

How Do I Use Glass Internally When Using Exit Portals And Not Get FireFlys/Artifacts?
Its called ArchGlass and can be ticked on in the material settings in the GUI of the latest Indigo version!
Afaik no exporter supports that feature... quite a shame!

Code: Select all

How Do I Get Metallic Objects (a mirror in this case) To Render With Less/No FireFlys?
Don't use phong but specular material with transparency ticked off and a very high IOR of for example 666 :)

Code: Select all

Is There A Way To Scale Or Change The Position Of An EV Map Material When Using Environment Maps?
No, but you can create a big sphere with normals facing in and place your HDRI on it, then control that sphere.... doesn't work with EPs!
There is a reason why professionall made EnvMaps have some photos attached to simulate the propper BG, since adjusting the EnvMap is a pain!

Code: Select all

I can't seem to use glass or a transparent material with volume for the glass windows because it creates odd artifacts in the render, with or without glass acceleration, so I end up deleting the glass which makes the scene feel fake in my opinion. 
Then you do something wrong mate, because glass needs to have a volume, all normals facing out! Please provide a image of the problem, or some small example scene, then we could help easier ;)

Code: Select all

It seems that any face that is created into an Exit Portal ends up being "blown out" or way overexposed with no visible sky background. Is it possible to use Exit Portals and still have a background image like a sky scene? 
Same problem as with cameras! use reinhard tonemapping then, or even better render with alpha and compose your background later!
polygonmanufaktur.de

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