What going to happen to us?

General questions about Indigo, the scene format, rendering etc...
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The Fox...
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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by The Fox... » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:03 pm

@Stinkie: An ethical way would have been not to write "Indigo is a free, unbiased renderer." on the frontpage, but instead write "Indigo is an unbiased renderer that will soon become commercial."

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fused
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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by fused » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:07 pm

The Fox... wrote:@Stinkie: An ethical way would have been not to write "Indigo is a free, unbiased renderer." on the frontpage, but instead write "Indigo is an unbiased renderer that will soon be commercial."
why? indigo until version 1.1.18 is a free unbiased renderer.... also it looks like these versions will stay free.

noone is forcing you to buy the latter versions, just use the available free versions.

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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by The Fox... » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:19 pm

@fused: Off course no one is forcing anyone! However, to people like kikeonline this commercialization means no more bug fixes, since the next versions will be too expensive! Ono should have told that Indigo is going to become commercial long time ago.

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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by Stinkie » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:32 pm

fused wrote:why? indigo until version 1.1.18 is a free unbiased renderer.... also it looks like these versions will stay free.

noone is forcing you to buy the latter versions, just use the available free versions.
True. And those are still great. I find it funny that, now it looks like there'll be an 'über-Indigo' available, people acutely aren't satisfied with the earlier versions anymore. What's that saying about a given horse again?

There's NOTHING unethical about what Ono and Benn are about to do, as they don't owe us squat. And as for that line on the front page - if you're gonna split hairs, it was correct in the past, and considering the commercial version of Indigo isn't out yet, it still is.
The Fox... wrote:@fused: Off course no one is forcing anyone! However, to people like kikeonline this commercialization means no more bug fixes, since the next versions will be too expensive! Ono should have told that Indigo is going to be commercial long time ago.
That's entirely kikeonline's problem, not Ono's. There's an easy fix too: he could switch to either Kerkythea or Luxrender. Problem solved.

I keep reading Ono should've told us this was coming - but ... why is that? Ono's given us many iterations of a great app, and a place to discuss that app - all completely free. How precisely has that indebted him to us?

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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by The Fox... » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:45 pm

Stinkie wrote: "That's entirely kikeonline's problem, not Ono's."

Have you ever heard the word "empathy", Stinkie? Your comment is "stinking" of mercilessness! :(

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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by jim_archviz » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:47 pm

Stinkie wrote: I have to ask: what would have been an ethical way of going about things? Mind you, this is not a rhetorical question.
I don't want to feed the flame war here, but just to reply:

There is obviously nothing unethical to make Indigo commercial, and indeed Glare Tech. does not owe passive end users anything.

However, it is my understanding (perhaps incorrect, I don't know) that people have actively contributed to make Indigo what it is on the understanding that it was a free project.
And as I said, I can understand that these people feel they have been deceived.

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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by fused » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:56 pm

jim_archviz wrote:However, it is my understanding (perhaps incorrect, I don't know) that people have actively contributed to make Indigo what it is on the understanding that it was a free project.
That may very well be, but many of those users have left on their own will. The ones remaining are exporter writers(which are in contact with Glare in order to find a way of working together) and, lets not froget, tutorial authors and some people contributing to the wiki. But im actually not seeing the problem here - where exactly is the connection between a tutorial/wiki and a commercialization of a product? There are enough tutorials for Fry/Maxwell/whatever-commercial-software-you-want and the ones writing those happily wrote them even though its commercial software and without wanting any compensation or insight into any internal business decisions.

Or am i wrong here? :)

edit: thy just could have stayed, right?

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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by jim_archviz » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:10 pm

fused wrote:The ones remaining are exporter writers(which are in contact with Glare in order to find a way of working together)
And as mentioned, I do hope for you that you have managed to negociate a good sale price for your exporter. Exporters dev. are in an extremely strong position right now.

As for contributors having left: You are making my point. Perhaps they felt deceived after realising where the "free" project was actually heading.

Clearly there is a big difference between buying a Maxwell license then contributing, and contributing on what you think is a free project.
That is the whole point of my argument: Perhaps the Indigo team was not completely up front.

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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by Stinkie » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:15 pm

The Fox... wrote:Stinkie wrote: "That's entirely kikeonline's problem, not Ono's."

Have you ever heard the word "empathy", Stinkie? Your comment is "stinking" of mercilessness! :(
Yours reeks of sophistry, mate. And yes, I have heard that word before. In fact, I have in the past bought a license to a certain app for someone who couldn't afford one. I suggest you don't rely on Ono for doing your good deeds for ya.

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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by fused » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:17 pm

jim_archviz wrote:And as mentioned, I do hope for you that you have managed to negociate a good sale price for your exporter. Exporters dev. are in an extremely strong position right now.

As for contributors having left: You are making my point. Perhaps they felt deceived after realising where the "free" project was actually heading.
But if they knew it back then, why do they come back comlainig now? :lol:
jim_archviz wrote:Clearly there is a big difference between buying a Maxwell license then contributing, and contributing on what you think is a free project.
That is the whole point of my argument: Perhaps the Indigo team was not completely up front.
Admitted, you have a point here.

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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by sweetcement » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:32 am

Not surprised this is happening -- my fear was that Ono would run out of money and have to abandon development. Indigo is a good product, and somebody has to pay for development...

Even though I'm a hobbyist, I will probably buy a license if it looks like the commercial version has some interesting features (i.e. variable ior in interiors, etc.). If not, I will keep using the 1.1.18 free version for a while.

What are some likely new features?

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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by Big Fan » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:04 am

I tend to agree with @jim_archviz there is a bit of a credibility problem ATM
This is something Glare will need to sort out or it will shadow the company's repute.
People will be asking themselves if the rules might change again or the company can guarantee to deliver on the exporters on an on going basis since they dont own them.
I think also they still need to redo the website front page to be a proper shop front for professionals and they really ought to consider axing the whole forum and starting again afresh rather than expose the embarassing and silly crap that is in there to a commercial audience.
More thought definitely needs to go into this venture before the big launch

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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by carsten_fokuspunkt » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:08 am

i have to agree with BigFan. The 2 guys of Glare are in home-made troubles now.

nobody knows what is the future of indigo, what is in the pipeline...

why i should pay nearly 300€ for software i dont know what will be 2 years. Supporting all shaders, light-types, and all the specials of the different 3d-apps will be a killer-feature. a perfect integration in all 3d-app, like vray4cinema or mental-ray in max/maya. i this case i would pay even more then these 300 :)

nobody told us a plan for the future. just to say ONO has to get money for his work isnt enough.

I think Indigo isnt ready for getting comercial. We all have version 1.1.18 and all exporters for it. We know nearly all bugs and work-around. We can create amazing pictures with the existing tool. We have everything we need for the moment as long as we dont know further features and improvements.

I hope Glare can give us a milestone like version 1.1.1!!! this was a cool time and everybody can remember the displacement-thread. Then this will happends a second time, a lot of us will pay for it.

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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by remus » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:57 pm

carsten_fokuspunkt wrote:why i should pay nearly 300€ for software i dont know what will be 2 years.
you could say that about any piece of software.
nobody told us a plan for the future. just to say ONO has to get money for his work isnt enough.
What are we doing now?

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Re: What going to happen to us?

Post by matsta » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:07 pm

I think you guys are missing a key underpinning to this whole saga. Ono hasn't really been using copious amounts of funding to develop his baby. Thats probably the biggest reason why i believe it deserves to go commercial and finally make him some money. Indigo is/was a personal project, unlike nearly all other rendering systems indigo has been the soul and vision of Nick Chapman, all the hard work and development came not through funding but rather through his VERY hard work. To say that development will stop without cash sales is not true, more accurate would be to say that without cash sales Nick's work will go unrewarded (in a exposure and cash sense).

I believe that this whole topic has very little to do with weather or not we think its unfair or unreasonable, in the end it boils down to one mans work (for the most part) being rewarded, it is totally up to him. The crux of this matter is weather or not the people who have been using his product for so many years and in so doing helping Nick iron out creases and get some stunning work to premote his renderer, will get any compensation when indigo does go commercial, I really wont be able to afford 300 euros, but at the same time 0.7MP just isnt enough to keep me using indigo :/

Regards

mat

Edit: with regards the remaining free versions, I will probably continue to make use of these, however one of the most exciting things for me about indigo is its continueing development and to be stuck with 1.1.8, however good it may be, and lose out on future development would be to lose out on one of the things that has made indigo so great in my opinion.

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