Reasons for not going open-source?

General questions about Indigo, the scene format, rendering etc...
mrCarnivore
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Reasons for not going open-source?

Post by mrCarnivore » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:33 am

I was wondering what your reasons are for not going open-source?

Do you want to make sure that ingigo is your baby and you wrote it yourself? Or do you fear somebody will steal your source-code and use it for something else?

The main reason I would like to see indigo become open-source is that you can build your own optimized versions... Also development might become even faster. (I know the drawbacks of developping open-source can be messy and unstructured code, which might as well slow down development...)

Anyway, I was just wondering about your reasons. Maybe you can enlighten me.

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Post by Deus » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:25 am

Search before you post. And I doubt you can do any significant optimizations

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suvakas
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Post by suvakas » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:05 am

Ono could make Indigo a lot faster if he would only be that smart to turn on those optimization flags. Come on ! You don't really belive that do you? :wink:

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tungee
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Post by tungee » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:49 am

please dont rape indigo . :x
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mrCarnivore
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Post by mrCarnivore » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:53 am

suvakas wrote:Ono could make Indigo a lot faster if he would only be that smart to turn on those optimization flags. Come on ! You don't really belive that do you? :wink:
It has nothing to do with forgetting to turn on the optimization flags. If you optimize with SSE3 the resulting binary will only run on processors that can handle SSE3. This would mean, that he would have to build several different builds with different optimizations to be able to provide every different processor with a specific build. I can understand if he does not see the fun in doing that. He wouldn't be the only one.
Also he might think that it will be confusing for the users if they have several versions to choose from and most people don't really have aclue what optimizations their processor is capable of. So they might dl a version that doesn't fit to their processor and get frustrated because they think indigo doesn't work properly...

You see there are several reasons just against providing several optimized releases on the official website. That's why for blender you will only find optimized releases in specific forums and not on the official site.

So back to the original question. Why does he not go open source? Does he fear the code will degenerate after that move? I could understand that. Would still be nice to know the reasons...

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F.ip2
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Post by F.ip2 » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:44 pm

well i am not a coder but is it si hard to compile for different CPUs?
specifically indigo is only windows. there is no cross plattfrom problem like
with blender.

as something so render intensive i think opt. builds make a lot of sense!!!

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mrCarnivore
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Post by mrCarnivore » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:43 pm

Like I said, with blender the optimized build bring A LOT of speed improvement.

With this scene:
http://www.eofw.org/bench/
It takes me 1:55 to render with the original build and 1:19 with a tailormade build for my processor with the compilerflags: -march=athlon 64 -msse3 and a few generaly optimization flags...
That's quite a lot I think. Howevery, as mentioned before it's highly unlikely that Ono will compile a specific build for the different processor types. If only for the reason he can't test all of them because he does not have own all those processors.
Anyway, this thread was supposed to be about why not going open source (just want to know the reasons, not trying to push into any direction).
About optimizations pls use this thread:
http://www2.indigorenderer.com/joomla/f ... php?t=1480

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soxofaan
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Re: Reasons for not going open-source?

Post by soxofaan » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:01 pm

mrCarnivore wrote:I know the drawbacks of developping open-source can be messy and unstructured code, ...
I think this has nothing to do with being open source or closed source. Closed source code can be equally messy and unstructured. Code quality mainly depends on good design and management of contributions.

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dogfin
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Post by dogfin » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:52 pm

So, I'm a Linux fanboy. Right now I'm only running about 1 closed-source program out of 10 or so. But I'm also about to finish a comp-sci degree. Personally, he can give me any reason, any at all for not going open-source and I'll say "Cool."

Space Aliens, Government Conspriecies, Communists, the caffine bugs whispered in his ear, or 42. Its all good to me.

As for the optimised build, you don't need the processor to complile for it, as long as the compiler supports it. And often times all it takes to enable SSE3 and other optimizations is an optimising compiler, like the Intell Compiiler. Why not do it? Probly because its not even an official release and god only knows what havok the optimisation could bring. Can't tell ya how much code I've had break just going from -O2 to -O3 in gcc.

Thats my 2 cents.


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Re: Reasons for not going open-source?

Post by mrCarnivore » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:07 pm

soxofaan wrote:I think this has nothing to do with being open source or closed source. Closed source code can be equally messy and unstructured. Code quality mainly depends on good design and management of contributions.
But I can understand why somebody would choose to rather program himself than to do the unthankful task to rewrite messy code of others or just to manage...
dogfin wrote:Why not do it? Probly because its not even an official release and god only knows what havok the optimisation could bring. Can't tell ya how much code I've had break just going from -O2 to -O3 in gcc.
Sure, too aggressive optimization parameters can ruin everything. That's why it's always bst to stay with -O2 and not go to -O3. However, I've never seen any negative effects from enabling -SSEn. Have you?

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soxofaan
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Re: Reasons for not going open-source?

Post by soxofaan » Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:01 am

mrCarnivore wrote:But I can understand why somebody would choose to rather program himself than to do the unthankful task to rewrite messy code of others or just to manage...
I agree, but Ono could refuse to accept/handle code that is too messy/unstructured. As project leader he could force to follow certain development guidelines. Open source does not equal anarchy. You still (can) have leaders and decision makers in open source. Most big open source projects do.

peace

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Post by Koba » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:02 pm

Personally, I don't mind if Ono doesn't make indigo open source but I would be much happier if the source code were available (subtle difference!).

I perfectly accept that open source can be messy and tricky to organise (setting up cvs, logs, documentation etc etc) so I don't think indigo would benefit much from the open source development process. Ono is doing a great job without needing to manage other people. That said...having the source available would bring me peace of mind.

As far as I know, this wouldn't even conflict with the business plan he has made for himself. How about releasing the source of versions two or three cycles old? I would be happy with that.

Koba

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CTZn
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Post by CTZn » Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:37 pm

A bit OT, but talking about open source... I found this one few days ago:

Pane

mrCarnivore
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Post by mrCarnivore » Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:05 am

Koba wrote:As far as I know, this wouldn't even conflict with the business plan he has made for himself.
Business as in money? So indigo will be not free any more from version 1 or something like that? Could you please specify? Otherwise I might have to panic... :shock:
Last edited by mrCarnivore on Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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