The best rendering engine?

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Oscar J
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Re: The best rendering engine?

Post by Oscar J » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:42 pm

Okay, a couple of reading comprehension fails there on your part.

* V-Ray doesn't support the alshader, only alSurface. Arnold won't use alShader from version 5 and forward. Redshift doesn't use alShader, but can convert such materials to a degree.

* Arnold has a lot of people working on characters all day long, Indigo doesn't. That's probably a big contributing factor if there's a quality difference between the best skin renders from Indigo and Arnold.

* What do you know about Indigo's "Phong" material type and what reflection model it uses? As has been mentioned already, "Phong" is just a name for it - it's frequently being updated and improved, and this is the first time I've heard anyone complains about it. Phong *is* "good enough", and is probably a more physicslly correct material than an alShader, which containd a whole array of biased parameters that don't make sense in a physically correct renderer.

There's no Arnold hate. It's just a completely different concept, a fundamentally different rendering engine.

Indigo doesn't have a dedicated skin material type, although it's definitely achievable with Glossy transparent + SSS or the new FastSSS material type. How about you make a request for a good skin shader instead of suggesting we replace Indigo's material models, meticulously developed for 10+ years, with a biased and discontinued shading system from a different rendering engine?

:)

FakeShamus
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Re: The best rendering engine?

Post by FakeShamus » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:22 am

agentwd40 wrote:Does Indigo have anything close to the alshader skin material?
given access to that specific head model with all the necessary maps and yes, I think Indigo can achieve something as good as what you see there. Oscar J also makes some good points about the different intent or focus of different engines, which is probably why you don't see more skin shader examples coming out of the Indigo community. But just generally without a level playing field these comparisons are meaningless.

agentwd40
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Re: The best rendering engine?

Post by agentwd40 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:46 pm

Okay Oscar, as far as porting a shader that's been in "biased" rendering engines into Indigo, I guess your right. Let's say Indigo wanted to port a shader that's only been in "biased" rendering engines... like diffuse. You can't port diffuse into Indigo! Diffuse is clearly written for a fundamentally different, biased rendering system. Diffuse containd a whole array of biased parameters that don't make sense in a physically correct renderer. No one is using the diffuse shader anymore. It's been... discontinued. Who wants to use a discontinued shader?

If Indigo can do skin material like the alshader, then why hasn't it been done? Don't tell me it can be done, show me. I've taken the best images in Indigo's gallery and put it up against the alshader. I see a very big difference. Don't tell, show. You want that head model? Here you go: http://lmgtfy.com/?iie=1&q=free+head+scan+models

I've made the request to have alshader ported into Indigo.
[*]Even though the alshader is able to do better skin then Indigo's,
[*]Even though the alshader is able to do better metal,
[*]Even though the alshader is able to do coating better then Indigo,
I expect the idea will be rejected. Who wants a shader that's been discontinued?

Have fun with Phong.

Eneen
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Re: The best rendering engine?

Post by Eneen » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:45 pm

agentwd40 wrote: I've made the request to have alshader ported into Indigo.
[*]Even though the alshader is able to do better skin then Indigo's,
[*]Even though the alshader is able to do better metal,
[*]Even though the alshader is able to do coating better then Indigo,
I expect the idea will be rejected. Who wants a shader that's been discontinued?
Please show me proof that all Indigo shaders are worse then alshaders.

Comparing quality of shaders so everything matches is IMO really hard if not impossible task and it is not comparison if you throw completely different pictures and say "hey this is better". All shortcuts taken will lead to bad results, and taking whatever picture can't be even called shortcut if you know what I mean. Internet is full of such things.

If you compare render engines' shaders in such way (different pictures and personal opinion) could you do similar comparison as here:
https://www.indigorenderer.com/forum/vi ... =7&t=14243
...but for skin?
Maybe using Indigo fastsss, coating, blend and "phong" you can mimic alshaders skin shader structure?

Small sidenote here: When two people that know something meet both get richer.

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thesquirell
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Re: The best rendering engine?

Post by thesquirell » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:50 am

- "Have fun with Phong."

Told you should rename it, lol. Now look at all that food you prepared for trolls.

On a side note,
"Which engine is the best? Doesn't matter. It come down to number of light bounces and materials. "

So, just skip the aporia of your own conclusion, and try Indigo out with nicely defined materials, and I'm sure you'll find that Indigo has you covered, in every situation. Going around, heads against the wall like this, will not get you very far, my friend.

Can't wait for Oscar's response, lol! xD

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lycium
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Re: The best rendering engine?

Post by lycium » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:19 am

agentwd40 wrote:Let's say Indigo wanted to port a shader that's only been in "biased" rendering engines... like diffuse.
What on Earth are you talking about... diffuse isn't even a shader, it's a BRDF / reflection model. There's nothing biased or unbiased about it, it's a reflection model; if you're interested, here's a good resource on what bias in rendering actually means: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~kmcrane/Project ... dering.pdf
agentwd40 wrote:Have fun with Phong.
thesquirell wrote:Told you should rename it, lol. Now look at all that food you prepared for trolls.
Unfortunately, you (thesquirell) are 100% correct here, he's enjoying that strawman argument against Phong way too much...

Incidentally, Indigo has never actually used Phong, it was initially Blinn-Phong, and since version 3.6 from 5 years ago is a much more realistic model.

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Oscar J
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Re: The best rendering engine?

Post by Oscar J » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:45 am

Well, nothing to add here except I think these recent tests by Arnold and Indigo user Sroka8888 are quite cool: https://www.indigorenderer.com/forum/vi ... 60#p140160

In general, rendering characters in Indigo is pretty uncommon AFAIK, and nobody's going to do it just to win an argument. But thanks for the head model. :wink:

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Originalplan®
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Re: The best rendering engine?

Post by Originalplan® » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:15 am

Oscar J wrote:Well, nothing to add...
One more thing tho..

https://vimeo.com/103857211

:wink:

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