Request for RGB emitter lights

Feature requests, bug reports and related discussion
neo0.
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Post by neo0. » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:10 pm

CTZn wrote:
Welcome to indigorenderer.com

Indigo Renderer is a free, physically-based unbiased render engine.
What part of "physically-based" implies that you can't get creative? Just because you have something with a glow in it doesnt mean everything else isn't physically accurate.

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CTZn
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Post by CTZn » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:31 pm

well in this case, glow was invented to simulate camera diffraction, for poor guys with poor renderers. See the point ?

no flaming here, I wouldn't call me "rich" neither.
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Post by Zom-B » Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:40 pm

neo0. wrote:What part of "physically-based" implies that you can't get creative?
if somebody is creative he could for example combine tools like Indigo for base image, a separate light pass via blender for example and some combination & tweaking in Gimp...

I don't think its creative to request something to avoid such steps... creativity isn't defined by doing unrealistic stuff neo0. just a short quote from wikipedia:

Creativity is a mental and social process involving the generation of new ideas or concepts, or new associations of the creative mind between existing ideas or concepts. An alternative conception of creativness is that it is simply the act of making something new.
neo0. wrote:Just because you have something with a glow in it doesnt mean everything else isn't physically accurate.
Indigo will stay a tool that focus on realistic approaches, by definition of being a unbiased render engine! This is something like rule 1 to 10 of Onos Indigo philosophy. Its an engine that fills this request for users that want exactly this! every afford to enhance Indigo by features that don't stick to rule 1 to 10 would just be "wasted time" that could be better used to enhance Indigo in speed ups or other features that are ok with rule 1 to 10!

Every user here besides the sketchup guys (like you) are working with an 3D app that does classic baised rendering... if they want glow, they render a separate pass in their app and combine the output....
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neo0.
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Post by neo0. » Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:10 pm

if somebody is creative he could for example combine tools like Indigo for base image, a separate light pass via blender for example and some combination & tweaking in Gimp...
I was talking about creativity in terms of your scene subject matter. Most people use ingido to create objects and scenes from contemporary settings, but if you wanted to create something that is more along the lines of sci fi, you might need to do things that dont look the way they do in reality. In reality, most things, dont glow, but glow is common place in sci fi.
Indigo will stay a tool that focus on realistic approaches, by definition of being a unbiased render engine! This is something like rule 1 to 10 of Onos Indigo philosophy. Its an engine that fills this request for users that want exactly this! every afford to enhance Indigo by features that don't stick to rule 1 to 10 would just be "wasted time" that could be better used to enhance Indigo in speed ups or other features that are ok with rule 1 to 10!
Uh, when did I say that I don't want indigo to be unbiased? You can't do glow with an unbiased renderer? If people don't want to use the glow, then nothing is forcing them to do so. As I said, the definition of realism varies based on your subject matter. In real life, not many things glow, but in a sci fi setting, there would be technology that doesn't exist in the real world, hence the need for imagination.

Creativity is a mental and social process involving the generation of new ideas or concepts, or new associations of the creative mind between existing ideas or concepts. An alternative conception of creativness is that it is simply the act of making something new.
Uh, and that's exactly what I was trying to do here. Add new features to indigo that make it artistically suited for a wider variety of subject matter.

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Akhenathon
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Post by Akhenathon » Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:58 am

neo0. wrote:
Uh, and that's exactly what I was trying to do here. Add new features to indigo that make it artistically suited for a wider variety of subject matter.
Neo0, Indigo is essentially a visualization tool. I would say it's a "visual simulation" tool. The program tries to mimmic the light behaviour through media, in order to give the closest match to a real scene.

I think you should ask yourself what you are really looking for in CGI and 3d. And I think your goal is something more directed to entertainment. So you should consider using another tool, with faster renderings and flexible post-processing features.

And you have to learn about cheating. Read the book
Digital Lighting and Rendering
by Jeremy Birn, a Pixar guy. This is a very good work, media and entertainment-oriented.

For me, I really didn't want to see unrealistic features on Indigo. Art is in my subjects, not in its representation.

I would like to see even more realism in Indigo, maybe with more flexible tabulated data, anamorphic behaviour (pleochroism), non-linearity and support for stereoscopy.

Good studies, and good work.
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Post by Kram1032 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:57 am

Akhenathon wrote:I would like to see even more realism in Indigo, maybe with more flexible tabulated data, anamorphic behaviour (pleochroism), non-linearity and support for stereoscopy.
If we're at it, I'd even like to have added effects of relativity... (of course with a switch as they'd make things slower by far)

But ok, that might be extremely.... well... extreme^^ (But interesting for "real" sci-fi)
_____________
neo0., you're jumping over parts of arguments which are pointier and focus on the other, less essencial parts. And as soon as you focus on the essencial ones, you interpret them in a very free, if not, TOO free way... I mean, you always focus on the wrong bits....... :? Read with more care and try to feel, taste, smell, hear, see the sense behinde the sentence! Please!

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Akhenathon
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Post by Akhenathon » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:11 am

If we're at it, I'd even like to have added effects of relativity... (of course with a switch as they'd make things slower by far)

But ok, that might be extremely.... well... extreme^^ (But interesting for "real" sci-fi)
_____________

Oh, I forgot: and all real-time. If not, it`s useless in the Holodeck. :D
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Kram1032
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Post by Kram1032 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:20 am

lol, well, that's most likely something, limited by computer resources ;)
Get something like the ranch, take it's power³ and you're most probably at realtime rendering :D xD

And I'm sure, such a holo-deck actually HAS calculation-powers, comparable to that. (Or higher, as it includes a perfect AI and solid-hologram-simulations....)

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Post by PureSpider » Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:58 am

neo0. wrote:In reality, most things, dont glow ...
EXACTLY! And Indigo simulates the reality as close as possible and not any kind of "I want to do this so add it in!" approach :roll:
So if things glow in reality, they glow in Indigo, too... If they don't glow in reality, they don't glow in Indigo... Thats the deal, got it now? :roll:

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Akhenathon
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Post by Akhenathon » Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:11 am

As I said, the definition of realism varies based on your subject matter.


This is not as philosophical as it looks. :wink:
"Realism" here is what we get when we just apply the Laws of Physics...
In real life, not many things glow, but in a sci fi setting, there would be technology that doesn't exist in the real world, hence the need for imagination.
In fact, water in nuclear reactors glows, thanks to Cherenkov radiation, that's faster than light in that medium.
Well, it's a nice relativistic feature for future versions of Indigo. :)

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Post by neo0. » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:51 pm

I might be wrong but i pretty sure it's not written in stone that indigo has to be used exclusively for modern day scenes. What if you wanted to do something with more of a sci fi feel?
I think you should ask yourself what you are really looking for in CGI and 3d.
Uhm, a way to render my scenes? Indigo does a great job at this. :)

As I have been saying ALL ALONG, nothing is wrong with having realistic lighting but being able to work in a few more effects would help it to be more flexible.

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Post by StompinTom » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:59 pm

neo0. wrote:I might be wrong but i pretty sure it's not written in stone that indigo has to be used exclusively for modern day scenes. What if you wanted to do something with more of a sci fi feel?

As I have been saying ALL ALONG, nothing is wrong with having realistic lighting but being able to work in a few more effects would help it to be more flexible.
http://www.indigorenderer.com/joomla/fo ... highlight=

hm?

a lot of these "effects" are actually cheats that are trying to replicate real-world phenomena or photographer/filmmaker tricks and equipment.

"glowing" happens by light scattering in the lens, and Indigo does have support for it (bloom). unless you have 100% perfect glass, there will always be some degree of scattering, and its mostly noticeable on bright objects because its a ratio of the light energy that gets scattered (the bigger the contrast between the bright object and the dark objects surrounding it, the more glow you will see around the bright object).

etc.

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Post by StompinTom » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:00 pm

basically, learn about photography and theatre and film lighting and you will have most of those effects, probably even better/more convincing.

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Akhenathon
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Post by Akhenathon » Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:53 am

neo0. wrote:I might be wrong but i pretty sure it's not written in stone that indigo has to be used exclusively for modern day scenes. What if you wanted to do something with more of a sci fi feel?
You are free to use whatever you want, neo0. What we are trying to say that you are not using the correct tool for your job.

Quit for this thread. :?

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Post by Borgleader » Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:00 am

Akhenathon wrote:
You are free to use whatever you want, neo0. What we are trying to say that you are not using the correct tool for your job.

Quit for this thread. :?
+1

Indigo is used to recreate as close as possible how light would react in reality. And so if what you want to do is sci-fi then use something else or modifiy your indigo render with PS/Gimp.

What you're asking to be added just goes against what Indigo is supposed to be.
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