Material/shader editor as part of the gui ?

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Whaat
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Post by Whaat » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:59 pm

Thanks for just proving my point:
neo0. wrote:Dynamic material previews that adjust to reflect changes that you make to the shader or texture. Status: Not implemented
SkIndigo already has one of the best material preview systems you could hope for. The sphere and cube preview scenes are just as fast if not faster than any preview scene for Maxwell or Fryrender, plus you can run multiple previews at the same time (um...not possible with Max or Fry). Correct me if I'm wrong, but real-time 'dynamic' previews are not implemented on any unbiased renderer because they give a poor representation of what the material will actually look like.
-Specular reflection for phong materials. Status: Not implemented
Yes, they are implemented. I responded to this here:
http://www.indigorenderer.com/joomla/fo ... 7&start=90
Sliders to adjust blend materials. Status: Not implemented
Really?? :roll:
-Popout adjustments for nested materials (like when you blend a blend material with another blend material, you can just click on a button and then it expands one of the blend materials for you to adjust) Status: Not implemented

Have you ever tried creating a Blend material and clicking on the 'Material A' or 'Material B' button? (I'm guessing not since you never even bothered to try clicking on the 'Save' material button to see if it works.. :roll: ) This will link you to the children of the Blend material so you can edit them. You can then click on the back button (<-) to get back to the parent material. This is pretty much identical to the functionality that you are describing.

Are you finally understanding why so many of us are so frustrated with you??

neo0.
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Post by neo0. » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:12 pm

Well, I must have missed something because when I change my materials, I don't see any preview changing. Im not saying it isn't there, I just must have passed it over.
Really??
Well, you tell me. You must be seeing something im not. To control the ratio of blend materials, you use numbers. This is great for precision, but it would also be nice to have a slider, as it would be very intuitive.
Have you ever tried creating a Blend material and clicking on the 'Material A' or 'Material B' button? (I'm guessing not since you never even bothered to try clicking on the 'Save' material button to see if it works.. ) This will link you to the children of the Blend material so you can edit them. You can then click on the back button (<-) to get back to the parent material. This is pretty much identical to the functionality that you are describing.
That's not what I was talking about. I was talking about being able to adjust the ratio of the materials for each of the child materials for a blend + blend material. Check here
http://www.indigorenderer.com/joomla/fo ... php?t=5349

Of course, you'de still be able click on the nested materials themselves to be able to adjust their properties (like you can now.)
Are you finally understanding why so many of us are so frustrated with you??
I admit, I have passed over things that were already there, but most of the time, you misunderstand my suggestion or get mad at me for even trying to provide suggestions to begin with.

Look, to be fair, indigo has effectively zero documentation. Skindigo does, but it's somewhat limited tbh. So, if me or anyone misses something thats alread there and puts it out there as a feature request, I dont think you should be that shocked..

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OnoSendai
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Post by OnoSendai » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:36 pm

neo0. wrote: Look, to be fair, indigo has effectively zero documentation.
Indigo has a 115 page manual.

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Post by neo0. » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:01 pm

I wasn't trying to soud callus, but most of the manual is technical shader code syntax.. Which isn't really of much help to a newbie or someone who just want to stick with the GUI..

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kellpossible
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Post by kellpossible » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:11 pm

neo0, have you tried pressing the preview button?!!

i think you are getting mixed up about what needs documentation, firstly Indigo doesn't have an environment to manipulate the models, or anything to do with the scene, other than a few options, so you can't expect it to have the kind of documentation to teach you how to make good materials and scenes in other form than stuff like shader syntax and how to use the basic functions, but on the other hand, you should be looking to skindigo for that kind of documentation at the moment, or even better use your initiative and add to the documentation by posting all the things you've learned through all these posts (I hope you have learned stuff!) to help other people who are having the same problems!

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Post by crojack » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:48 am

All of that, neO, ALL OF THAT has been covered multiple times, is in the program, and can be done.

ALL OF IT!!!!!

I just must have passed it over.
This is exactly what we are talking about!!

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Post by neo0. » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:59 pm

See, this is exactly what I was talking about. You get mad and you misunderstand what im trying to get at. I was talking about a preview that automatically displays changes you make to your material. I think I understand where you went wrong. Yes, there is a preview mode, but it requires you to manually go in and rerender everytime you make changes. Also, the resulting action requires you to split your attention between the main indigo window and skindigo, which feels a tad bit clunky. Of course, it's better than having to render your entire scene, but I think it can be improved upon. What if Skindigo had an embedded indigo window where the thumbnail is that automatically rendered the preview. It would only need one core and could use the "render in the background" setting. With AUTOMATIC previews, you could spend more time configuring your materials and less time getting them to preview. It would just be a lot more efficient.
All of that, neO, ALL OF THAT has been covered multiple times, is in the program, and can be done.
Please read the thread earlier where I pitched my idea for blend mats. It's clearly not how it's currently done.

Image
So please, think before getting mad at me. I know you may be more experienced than me with indigo, but that doesnt mean that my input doesn't count for anything. :)

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Post by MSUdom5 » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:04 pm

I'm a little confused. Indigo would still need to render the preview, even if the preview generation was automatic and embedded in the plugin dialog. So you would still need to wait a while until you see your preview. Unless you're talking about writing a separate, faster renderer just for previews, I don't see how your idea would make things easier.

Also, how would a slider make things that much easier? Sliders rarely have the resolution to allow you to get the exact value you want, so most people would probably end up entering the value manually anyway.

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Post by neo0. » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:33 pm

It would take that one step out of the picture. Depending on your level of experience, perfecting the material can take many tries, so in the end, it would work out to be a considerable amount of time. Automation always = saving time. Also, the way it currently is, you have 2 windows (sketchup and indigo) . Not adding anything extra, would simplify the process because you wouldn't have to divert your attention from what matters the most, skindigo.

Some people want precise values, but for other people.. They might only want rough values. Plus, as I mentioned, a slider is a great way to visuallize the weight of the material. Ultimately, the result is visual, so what could be a more appropriate way to control the results, than visually? A slider would be a very intuitive way to control blend ratios simply because of it would help people imagine it. Closer to A means that mat would be more A than B. On the other hand, some people(me included) find numbers a bit awkward for something like this..

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Post by crojack » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:59 pm

OR,
closer to 1 means that mat would be more A or closer to 10 means that mat would be closer to B.

what's the difference?

and, it doesn't matter where the render/preview window is.. Indigo still has to render it. IF it isn't Indigo rendering it, than it wouldn't show the actual output of the final render.




oh, and um...... er, Skindigo does have a gui that is just sliders, just saying, of course you wouldn't know that because I don't think you ever do anything but get on the forum and post up completely poorly thought through ideas and questions.

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kellpossible
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Post by kellpossible » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:12 pm

well neo0, if you want people to take you seriously, maybe you should try something like helping with the documentation for the new indigo/skindigo stable version, so that people can see that you are willing to do the work, rather than just suggest things, even if you think you don't think you have anything to add to the documentation, I'm sure these people would be willing to constructively help you, (their not enemies just people who see you in the "wrong" light)

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Post by neo0. » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:37 pm

I would gladly help with material documentation. :) I was thinking about putting a PDF together on skindigo materials...

@crojack : I think you missed my point. I'd recommend reading my post again. Automating previewing would save you time and hassle. As for the blend materials, the difference lies in how the info is conveyed. Many people find visual indicators a lot more approachable/intuitive than numerical inputs. If you see the slider close to A, you can instantly get an idea of the ratio.. It wouldn't replace the numerical input (for people who like precision), just complement it. Moreover as material creation is a visual process, representing it visually within the UI is much more appropriate.

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kellpossible
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Post by kellpossible » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:25 pm

I find that explanation fair enough :)

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Post by bmscmoreira » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:34 am

I agree that a visual feedback of the material creation process would benefit the whole. Don't know how dificult would it be to implement such kind of system, but it sure would be a great feature!

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Post by crojack » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:36 am

I recommend you reading my post again, especially the bottom part. Skindigo has a visual/slider based GUI.


and, sure, I'd love to have a computer fast enough to automatically show any changes I make to a material. Where you are missing the point is that, this isn't possible, as far as I know, with an un-biased renderer. Maybe if you have all the previews running on a big renderfarm you could get close to this?

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