Ship wakes and bow wave

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Onizuka
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Ship wakes and bow wave

Post by Onizuka » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:06 am

Hi,

I have a question. A big part of my works are about ships, especially this one, and I was wondering if there is a way to create a bow wave, and wakes with Indigo ? Maybe by the same method as the volumetric clouds ?
That's really something missing to realizm for rendering ships at sea with Indigo.

I for now only do it in post processing, but it's a long process and not always so much realistic; and also I prefer to post process the less as possible to keep more coherence :p

Does someone know a method ?

By the way, I also after many tries, failed to create a realistic smoke for the funnels without post process
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Oscar J
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Re: Ship wakes and bow wave

Post by Oscar J » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:46 am

A software like Realflow should be good for creating the wakes and bow waves. You may have to create some custom Indigo materials if you want foam (here is a very realistic one, but it's very slow to render):http://www.indigorenderer.com/materials/materials/1419

Rendering actual volumetrics would probably be very inefficient, I would probably post-pro it or perhaps try an alpha texture for the smoke.

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Onizuka
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Re: Ship wakes and bow wave

Post by Onizuka » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:01 am

Thanks for your answer,
Yes Real Flow seems a perfect solution, but I heard it was some what an expensive solution; Also it would need to learn the whole program to use it; Maybe later I will do that, but for now it's not really possible..

But you're saying to apply a material on a physical mesh if I understand ?
I have actually no solutions to model a physical wave, that's why I made this post. But I've seen this solution on other forums, but I was looking for a different way :D

For now I do the waves and the smoke in post process but I was hoping to find a 3d or a rendering method to do it.

Does someone already made attempts to create smoke with some FBM noise, Perlin noise or something like that ?

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Re: Ship wakes and bow wave

Post by zeitmeister » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:06 pm

Cheers, David



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Onizuka
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Re: Ship wakes and bow wave

Post by Onizuka » Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:11 am

Ok ! That seems good, I'm definitely going to try it, thank you.


But it would be awesome if something could be done into indigo to create wakes and bow wave, maching with the waves of ocean, for fix renders. I'm sure i would be very tricky to create but it would be awesome.
Maybe has any Indigo developper already think about it for adding on a "to do list" ? :)

It would not only help for ships, but maybe also for the sea crashing on rocks and cliff, on shores

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Re: Ship wakes and bow wave

Post by zeitmeister » Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:28 am

I am not sure if sophisticated fluid animations should find it's way into a renderer, to be honest. ;-)


Cheers, zeiti
Cheers, David



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Onizuka
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Re: Ship wakes and bow wave

Post by Onizuka » Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:40 am

Well I think it does, in fact for a render I was thinking to a fluid "interpreter" I mean wich create a static result according to some parameters, maybe something like " The ship goes at a said speed, and the sea as a said amount of waves, speed of waves etc, so the result will be such a wave" for example, I don't know if I am clear; But I don't know if such a thing is possible.

Anyway, sort of a fluid simulation would be very use full because we can do animations with Indigo. By now it is completely impossible to create an animation of a ship with wakes and bow wave with Indigo

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Re: Ship wakes and bow wave

Post by Zom-B » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:39 am

Onizuka wrote:Anyway, sort of a fluid simulation would be very use full because we can do animations with Indigo. By now it is completely impossible to create an animation of a ship with wakes and bow wave with Indigo
Calculating the physical mesh for the water is job of a fluid simulation, end of story!

What Indigo COULD (and maybe should) do at some point do is loading volumetric data generated from a water simulation and render it properly!
There has been already experiments done for stuff like that in the past, but they are afaik halted since fokus is atm to bring v4 out.

Here the Thread about the Volumetric stuff: http://www.indigorenderer.com/forum/vie ... xperiments
(many pages, browse them for pictures of tests...)

And here an interesting Material that shows how nice foam can be used on a texture based approach: http://www.indigorenderer.com/forum/vie ... it=jacuzzi
Now imagine getting the Foam Information for the base mesh in UV data, so you could blend clear water + Foamy water materials into each other using that "foam mask".

Never say something isn't possible, only because you were not able to achieve it :roll:
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Onizuka
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Re: Ship wakes and bow wave

Post by Onizuka » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:18 am

Thanks ZOm-B for your answer,

I have read this thread about volumetrics already. And I know we can generate the waves by a geometry.

Please don't say that I think something is not achiveable because I'm not able to do it, because its not true..

I can model the wakes and even the bow waves with sketchup but it wouldn't look so much realistic; the solution of the fluid simulation into blender seems already better, but then the wakes and bow wave would not fit properly with a subdivided ocean calculated inside Indigo, so then I would need an entire ocean mesh were the ocean waves, the ship wakes and the bow wave fits together smoothly (without intersecting realisticaly ).. and I would lost every advantages of the low memory usage of the subdivision and the shader displacement.
This is the solution I know for it, but I was just wondering if there is a way to create wakes with something like a shader ( so as for the water displacement for ocean) and wich would fit smoothly with the ocean itself, or maybe by using a volumetric also shader based a bit like for the volumetric clouds, but for the wakes and the bow wave.

I've seen this solution with real flow and blender by the past, real flow being not affordable for me for now, and for blender I still didn't try because I'm not familiar with the softwre, I was looking for somehing else, but I guess I will try this solution.

To be more simple my question was basically, is there a way to create ship wakes and bow wave without creating the waves as a physical mesh with many polygons, and without creating the waves with post-processing; or without using an other program, but using Indigo for it.
I was almost sure that my post would create dismay, and that the answers would be negative, but I was wondering, because I guess it would save a lot of time, and memory.

And maybe one day it would be some kind of possibility, it would be amazing

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Re: Ship wakes and bow wave

Post by Zom-B » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:43 am

Onizuka wrote:To be more simple my question was basically, is there a way to create ship wakes and bow wave without creating the waves as a physical mesh with many polygons, and without creating the waves with post-processing; or without using an other program, but using Indigo for it.
One way to transfer such Information from Program A to Renderer B would be Vector Displacement via a texture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn3_TOIKTYw
But this feature is not supported by Indigo (yet) :?
Onizuka wrote:I was almost sure that my post would create dismay, and that the answers would be negative, but I was wondering, because I guess it would save a lot of time, and memory.
Your last explanation was way better then the first for me to understand: what your issues are and what goals you want to reach and what you needed to avoid, also the SketchUp information finally came through :)
Onizuka wrote:And maybe one day it would be some kind of possibility, it would be amazing
Well, Indigo is and stays a Light Simulator, there is a ton of requests and features in this direction that would benefit the renderer and its workflow a lot. Investing development power is such special niche directions, that are usually uninteresting for 95% of the customers of this software is simply a bad focus of development (especially with a such small team like here: 3 people!). If Glare could acquire a ton of new customers by a specific feature they implement, well that's another story...
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Onizuka
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Re: Ship wakes and bow wave

Post by Onizuka » Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:34 am

Oh yes that vector displacement technique seems very cool and interesting ! But here he does a demonstration in one same program, no ?
Not yet, so is it a feature that is curently being developped for some futur versions of Indigo ? :D

OK, sorry you're right sometimes I'm not clear enough with my explanations. But yes I am using sketchup, I don't think its a shame any more 8)
Well, Indigo is and stays a Light Simulator, there is a ton of requests and features in this direction that would benefit the renderer and its workflow a lot. Investing development power is such special niche directions, that are usually uninteresting for 95% of the customers of this software is simply a bad focus of development (especially with a such small team like here: 3 people!). If Glare could acquire a ton of new customers by a specific feature they implement, well that's another story...
Yes of course I understand that, but of course I needed to ask to be able to hope that it may be a futur feature of Indigo haha.
By the way I started to be interested by code recently and I'm going to follow a development training soon. Maybe I'll help the team in the futur, I'd be happy to and would find it very interesting; I always found that Indigo is amazing ! And I think it has still a lot of potential

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Re: Ship wakes and bow wave

Post by ak-sam » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:54 am

This may not help you directly but there's a great tech video for Disney's animated movie Moana, which features amazing realistic ocean wave animation:

https://www.cnet.com/news/making-moana- ... n-studios/
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Onizuka
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Re: Ship wakes and bow wave

Post by Onizuka » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:25 am

It's quite impressive what they can do

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