Indigo Renderer Forum

Hi ,

My login name does not work phil-render become philrender and
this email does not work:
webmaster@indigorender.com

regards, Phil

You might want to correct this mistake:

"Indigo is a new, free, activeley developed, unbiased render engine."

to

"Indigo is a new, free, actively developed, unbiased render engine."

This typo was bugging me since the last site, a typo on the first line of text you read on a website can make a pretty bad first impression

Yes.. pls fix that radiance
I fixed it on the about page already

On the subject of typos:

As you will have noticed, our new website is up.
It Still needs lots of work, especially the addition
of content, eg articles, faq entries etc.

Still needs lowercase s and FAQ should be in capitals.

Oh, dammit. Someone's released the pedant from within me.

love the new site, jsut 2 things i noticed (using f2)

its quite odd, I can't log in on the main indigo.com:

I enter my pass and name, click remember me, then I do ok...

Then I get sent back to the login page...but It shows I am logged in.


EDIT:

Now I get this:

Ok...this criticism is going to seem extremely strange. But please bear with me, perhaps you will understand where I am coming from. Strange as it may be I am giving a gut (!= logical) reaction to seeing the homepage.

The new site seems to be a victim of its own very professional style. Having been interested in Open Source and CG as a hobby I have been to many, many web sites with free/open CG software. Most (unfortunately) have been pretty crappy. Oh course this is not a good thing. Problem is I have got used to this and the site as it now is so far from crappy it is loosing part of its message.

If I see a poorly designed site for downloading software I think two things - firstly comfort that it is probably not a commercial/proprietary venture and secondly worry that I have found a dead project. When I see a site as well maintained as this one my immediate reaction would be to move on quickly. Why?

The site as it is now seems to scream of commercialism. It looks like professional marking glitz which means a non-free "product". I have seen the indigo web site evolve from the very beginning so I have got used to it but that would not be my reaction had I seen it for the first time. The original flipcode forums were no where near as good as these ones but they had a warm fuzzy feeling of being a friendly community of enthusiasts. Not so much anymore.

One of the first thing the eye sees are the testimonials. Why are they there? Testimonials are normally given to convince people to give up their hard earned cash. Seems strange to have flashing testimonials for a project like this.

Maybe I have become cynical and I really do not mean to critisise what Joegiampaoli said for example but when I read:

Indigo Renderer has given me the realism and quality that I have always looked for without the need of spending hundreds of dollars in commercial applications to achieve the same results....", Joegiampaoli

My reaction is as follows:

- "Realism", "Quality" - are you trying to sell me something?
- "Without...spending hundreds of dollars" - ok, so it is less than $100 but it must cost *something*. Must be shareware or similar.

Of course if you continue reading you see that:

Indigo is a new, free, actively developed, unbiased render engine.

My worry is that some people trawling through loads of websites wouldn't get that far before moving on. Not enough emphasis. The style and professionalism of the site may taste too commercial before people get to realise what indigo is.

In no way am I asking Radiance to downgrade the site. Radiance has been extraordinarily committed and has done a fantastic job. I wish other OSS project sites had people like him. So what I would like to ask is this - make it clear from a single glance that indigo as it stands is *free*.

On the igneus site (http://igneus.co.uk/) the top banner says that:

The project will involve the construction and development of a stable, extensible and versatile renderer that will be open and freely usable.

That comforts me immediately and keeps me browsing the site. So while I'm sure we agree that indigo can rival commercial products and we are all grateful that Ono has let us use his wonderful code freely, it is still important to make sure that no one who visits the site is under the impression that indigo is a commercial product.

You see, people like me wouldn't spend a single dollar on software - partially because I am a student and partially because I strongly believe in free software. Then there is the fact that people can browse really fast and make very quick decisions based on gut reaction and not logic.

The solution is to make sure that people understand that indigo is free and of commercial quality at first glance. Some large text in a banner would be good for this. And the testimonials should be about how indigo is of commercial quality and free.

Strange criticism and no doubt some won't agree with me. Don't want to stir up a heated debate but I am being honest here. Other than that, great work Radiance!

Koba

EDIT - double post sorry. That can be another crit - got a 505 error (I think) when I tried to post. Server doesn't seem very responsive at the moment.

Koba

I'm inclined to agree with Koba. Its a great design but I keep feeling that the energy of this project keeps being put in to odd areas. One point where I dissagree with Koba is that this quote needs to stay :

Indigo, the renderer that keeps on rendering

dogfin -

Koba wrote:
The site as it is now seems to scream of commercialism. It looks like professional marking glitz which means a non-free "product". I have seen the indigo web site evolve from the very beginning so I have got used to it but that would not be my reaction had I seen it for the first time. The original flipcode forums were no where near as good as these ones but they had a warm fuzzy feeling of being a friendly community of enthusiasts. Not so much anymore.
Koba

So it should be a cheezy looking website with absolutely no graphics and quality (when most of us work with graphics and quality)?
We have to fall into the same open source or freeware appz formula?
Maybe even put Tux on the corner somwhere?

Koba wrote: Maybe I have become cynical and I really do not mean to critisise what Joegiampaoli said for example but when I read:

Indigo Renderer has given me the realism and quality that I have always looked for without the need of spending hundreds of dollars in commercial applications to achieve the same results....", Joegiampaoli

My reaction is as follows:

- "Realism", "Quality" - are you trying to sell me something?
- "Without...spending hundreds of dollars" - ok, so it is less than $100 but it must cost *something*. Must be shareware or similar.


Koba

Yes, I am planning on selling something that I render for my clients. (With quality and realism).

"Without the need of spending hundreds of dollars..." - Yes, since it's free I don't have to spend HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS...(???)

I think he dont want to complain about the new site.
i quickly read his post and i think all he want to say is that the term "free" should be more present and more "eye catching"

radiance, here's a rule of thumb, if you need to post a reply to the same thread 4 times in ten minutes, you might need to walk away and take a breather. By posting like that you completely confirmed what I said about energy in the wrong areas.

Stability before Features, Cleanliness before Fluff, thats where I think the energy should be. Later.


dogfin -

edited to remove all

Well, well. Seems I have stirred things up.

Most of you have taken what I said quite well. I am generally agreeing with what you have to say. So let me answer your comments on a point by point basis.

@dogfin

I disagree with Koba is that this quote needs to stay Very Happy Cool :
Quote:
Indigo, the renderer that keeps on rendering

At no point did I say that quoting is bad. Neither did I say it needs to be removed. I just said that quotes should avoid sounding like marketing quips and if they are to promote indigo they should make clear that it is free. Random quotes can be cool.

@radiance

it's a CMS (content management system) based fully dynamic site.
not a single line of HTML or PHP code needed.

it will allow (phase 2 of my project, starting this week) us to have our
members become editors and other roles with permissions so they
can create and update site content.

Great! I didn't know that. In that case congratulations on implementing a system that lessens your workload and allows other to get involved more easily. As the current content/design of the site aren't the main focus then it can only be a good thing that it is now more open to change (if anyone else feels the same way as I do then a small adjustment can be made).

Also keep in mind that indigo is NOT an open source product, so this site is not intended to look like an open source site.
it's not commercial neither, it's free.

Agreed. I haven't forgotten though I do wish indigo was open source. That said Ono is doing a great job alone so currently I have no gripes with the way he is doing things. I must say, however, that indigo seems to borrow a lot of open source methods - using volunteers (such as yourself), getting people to test builds and so on. Indigo is not a typical freeware setup - it feels more like open source without access to the source!

the quotes are not meant to be 'customer testimonials'
they're meant to be forum members's quotes. They can even be jokes.

Again that is a nice idea. Slashdot has random quotes/jokes at the bottom of the page and I love it. Perhaps with more quotes and variety it will be clear that they aren't meant to be testimonials. Maybe we should get some funny ones in there.

I've basically built the theatre and you're complaining about the show... ?????

As I just said, good job! I didn't know that was the main purpose of the change - you are enabling things to change which I applaud. Making it more of a community site can only be good thing. Don't get stressed. Your banner idea is good and thank you for taking it onboard.

@joegiampaoli

So it should be a cheezy looking website with absolutely no graphics and quality (when most of us work with graphics and quality)?

I added the word unfortunately for a reason. Because a lot of freeware/open projects have poor quality design, it comes as a surprise when you see this level of quality on a similar kind of project. I did not say that quality is a bad thing - I am very happy with the quality of this site. If other sites improved, then my points would be invalidated. I also specifically said that I would hate to see the site downgraded. So this is all a relative thing not an absolute thing. *Absolute* quality of the site is very good. *Relative* quality being so much better and hence insinuating big money flow is bad.

"Without the need of spending hundreds of dollars..." - Yes, since it's free I don't have to spend HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS...(???)

Exactly. Instead of emphasising what you are *not* doing (spending hundreds of dollars) emphasis what you are actually doing (spending nothing at all!) while producing quality work for clients. *Then* you can add what you would have to do if indigo didn't exist due to the high price of good renderers. Again, I did say I wasn't trying to criticise the content of what you said - just the way it *might* be read (and wrongly at that).

So that about covers it people. I have tried to be fair and I have no intention on making enemies. I was posting the way I felt as an act of good will to help improve this project - so let's keep it civil!

Koba

Phil wrote:...My login name does not work phil-render become philrender...

I was castrated too... I want my - back